Seriously Catherine Podcast /
In this transformative episode, host Catherine Hover delves deep into the realms of happiness, the strategies to combat burnout, and the intricacies of entrepreneurship with Dr. Manuel Astruc.
Dr. Astruc, a leading expert in psychology and coaching, shares invaluable insights drawn from his vast experience and research. Listeners are treated to a candid conversation that demystifies the often elusive concept of happiness, offering actionable tips to cultivate joy in everyday life.
Burnout, a silent epidemic of our times, is dissected with clarity and empathy. Dr. Astruc’s expertise shines as he provides practical tools and approaches to recognize burnout’s signs and navigate its challenges, ensuring listeners not only identify potential pitfalls but also build resilience.
Join Catherine Hover and Dr. Manuel Astruc for an enriching conversation that promises not just knowledge but also inspiration. Whether you’re navigating the complexities of personal happiness, combating professional burnout, or charting your entrepreneurial path, this episode is a beacon of wisdom and hope. Tune in and embark on a journey towards a more fulfilling and balanced life.
Visit Dr. Astruc’s website HERE.
Get a copy of his book HERE.
Don’t forget to check out Saratoga Living’s After Hours for what’s new and happening in Saratoga!
Special Thanks to the Adelphi Hotel for being our Launch Partners!
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*This Transcript is Autogenerated*
Dr. Astruc 0:00
It was that month after she had passed away. And on that day I drew a line in the sand. There was a moment of truth, you know, and I said, I’m gonna figure out how to join the ride no matter what, you know, going forward. And that’s what led to the book. Ultimately, it was like hitting the bottom. And then the story of getting better, and then connecting that backwards
Catherine Hover 0:31
Welcome to seriously, Catherine a podcast about taking your business seriously, but not yourself.
I have a heartache on Bradley Cooper. Now. I feel like I’ve been a Bradley Cooper fan for a very long time. But what really did me in was the movie A star is born with Lady Gaga. And I was like Silver Linings Playbook is one of my favorite movies too. But anyway, I definitely fell in love with him and his acting and directing in A star is born with Lady Gaga. And I definitely definitely think that Lady Gaga, whether she knows it or not ruined Bradley Cooper’s marriage did that I don’t even know if they were ever married. Arena. I need a fact checker for that. But anyway, he shares a daughter with Irina. His daughter’s name is Leah and she is beautiful. She brought her as his date to the red carpet for his Maestro movie premiere. And she is adorable. You’ll have to go look at this little girl. She’s so cute. Anyway, there is a photo of Lady Gaga there like she went in to support Bradley, which is awesome. I guess they’re still friends. But there is a photo of like Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga and little girl and they’re both looking at Lady Gaga. And Bradley looks like he’s in love. Just like convinced that I think that Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga have to have to get end up together. I just think that they shared so many special moments on A star is born and making that movie. It was like such a deep movie. And hard I’m sure to like let that roll go. I don’t know I’m a fan. I think that Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga should get married and have babies. Bradley, Lady Gaga. If you’re listening please invite me to the wedding because I would love to go and support your marriage. Okay, so if you know me, you know that I love what I do. And I’m a workaholic. So if I ever have a chance to get away, I can’t go too far away without my kids and without being so far away from work. The Delphi is my go to what’s really great about the Delphi is that it has everything you need. It’s right there on Broadway. It has a restaurant, it’s got the breakfast join. It’s got it all. And the room service is amazing. So last Christmas, we did Christmas Day Night at the Delphi we booked the Polaris suite which is really special because it has a hot tub on the balcony. And the kids loved it. It was so much when we ordered room service and it was just like the most special thing and again, it’s got a Jacuzzi. I mean who doesn’t want to use a Jacuzzi at the Delphi if you don’t have the opportunity to stay at the Adelphia you can still go and hang out in their in their lobby or eat at their restaurants. The best sushi in town by far I believe is at the a Delphi you should get the rainbow roll. You can thank me later. It’s delicious. It’s absolutely the bomb. If you are local and you need a night off or a night away, don’t go too far. Go right there to be a Delphi book yourself or wrong. Have dinner there have breakfast in the morning and you’ll feel like a totally different person when you wake up. All right, everyone, I have a special guest for you. Abby from Saratoga living is here with us to give us a little scoop on the winter issue of Saratoga living.
Abby Tegnelia 3:55
That’s right winter 2024 Can you believe it?
Catherine Hover 3:57
I can’t believe it. So winter is always about weddings. It
Abby Tegnelia 4:02
is it’s our I do issue. So there are mostly locals in town and we’d love to show off other locals. The best thing I think about the weddings issue is that we get to show off our entire region that this is the time we can go from fancy at Delphi weddings to showing off Adirondacks and really hit home how much we have to offer here in our area.
Catherine Hover 4:23
How do you choose like the person the bride that’s going to be on the cover? And then how does that work? You pull from pictures from last winter because you can’t you know, like how quickly can you pull off? It’s got to be somebody from last year that got married last winter.
Abby Tegnelia 4:35
So that is exactly correct. That’s a great question to ask how we choose the photos we make every single weddings issue completely different with a completely different theme. And so this year we actually our big feature is by season. So we do have a winter wedding and that one is actually on the cover. And then we have an amazing fall wedding. We have someone who did a crazy crazy summer wedding at the track.
Catherine Hover 4:58
So do you want to hear what I would Get married. Yes, I’m gonna get married again. So you know I love the Adele fi. Yes. So we would have to encapsulate that at some component. Right. So
Abby Tegnelia 5:08
it’s all fighters wedding so beautifully. And that actually is the cover wedding. It’s so beautiful, though it is the fall wedding was that in an earlier West. And it just so happened that the venue they were looking at was available on Friday the 13th. So they did a Halloween wedding. At the end that URL. OST is a big wedding venue.
Catherine Hover 5:27
When can we get our hands on this? This magazine, the second week of January it comes out. There’s also a food and drink portion of this magazine. Every
Abby Tegnelia 5:34
single issue. We have a food and drink section. This one will focus on the culinary arts. That’s back.
Catherine Hover 5:39
The mushroom event did you get sold out
Abby Tegnelia 5:43
in minutes? So I was not surprised. But at SPAC they were a little bit surprised. So we talked about all their fantastic events. Yeah, and then we also cover Kendricks new brunch, the new wine bar on Henry Street.
Catherine Hover 5:55
You’ve been I went yesterday for the first time and so did I Oh, yesterday for the first time. It was so good. I got the fried chicken Benedetta fried
Abby Tegnelia 6:03
chicken. Yeah, yeah. Fried Chicken Benny. Yes. That’s Ryan’s favorite. Apparently, the owner Ryan McFadden. Yeah,
Catherine Hover 6:08
it was so good. And I’m gonna go back this Sunday.
Abby Tegnelia 6:10
Okay, it sounds like we hit the good food and drink story. And
Catherine Hover 6:13
they have an Espresso Martini. That was really good. Like we’ve recently
Abby Tegnelia 6:18
dubbed the night wasn’t the nightcap of Saratoga. And you had it for noon. Why not? Yeah. Also, I wanted to add that we have one new section for 2024. And that is spa and beauty. Whoa, we’ve never had a place to put in all of the great new complexions of the world, the great new spas that are coming in all the med spas, the new technology, everything. So we’re really excited about this new section. And our first profile is on a dk foot sanctuary on Phylis Street. Another
Catherine Hover 6:45
way that people describe Saratoga is as the spa city. So it makes sense that there’s a section in Saratoga living that just revolves around all the spas. I mean, there’s a lot of them to choose from. Absolutely. Now we have a place for him. Yes. Everybody needs some self care. So get your hands on a copy of this issue. The second week in January, where might one find the issue as grocery stores. So
Abby Tegnelia 7:08
you can actually get it mailed to your home. We do sell subscriptions. But yes, we’re in Hannaford Price Chopper market. 32.
Catherine Hover 7:16
Okay. Thanks for being with us, Abby.
Abby Tegnelia 7:18
Thank you, Katherine.
Catherine Hover 7:22
On this week’s episode of seriously, Catherine, we are joined by Dr. Manuel astrak. He is a board certified psychiatrist with over 20 years of experience and 50,000 hours serving clients face to face. He works in his private practice here in Saratoga. And in the addictions field as the medical director of Saratoga County Alcohol and Substance Abuse Services. His Own Story of burnout inspired a better conversation about how to avoid or overcome the damaging effects of burnout, which I have experienced myself. He’s also an author, which we will talk a lot about in this episode, Dr. astrak, has taken the wisdom he’s learned and brings it to business owners through his coaching practice where he specializes in entrepreneurs who are experiencing burnout. And I’m so excited to get into this conversation. And I remember you said this, like the reaction that you’re having right now is completely normal. It feels weird, because it’s suffering and helplessness, and powerlessness. But it’s actually a normal response to what you just went through, right?
Unknown Speaker 8:33
And we want to escape that.
Catherine Hover 8:35
Right? So I was like,
Speaker 1 8:36
can we get that over with as quickly as we can? And sometimes we can.
Catherine Hover 8:41
And you said, Well, it’s only been a week, and you need a whole nother week for your body to read. And the blood loss. That’s, that is the main thing too. You told me it’s like the blood loss piece of it, and your postpartum so you’re like, completely you are unwell. But that’s normal. And you wouldn’t take me to four wins.
Dr. Manuel Astruc 8:59
No four wins. No medications, you just have to get through a really rough part of your life. And a lot of times we will do anything to avoid feeling terrible. And you’re not used to feeling terrible. You’re used to hitting the gas when something’s not right. And solving problems and just facing things head on and wrestling with them and wrestling to the ground and like just fixing stuff, right, get done. Yeah. And this was not one where you could get wrapped up. This was where you had to just stop in honor and respect that your body needed time to come back.
Catherine Hover 9:34
So what is it in me that I didn’t like? Try drugs at that point? Do you need to know what I mean? I think that is the moment in life when people like turn to drugs, or alcohol or whatever it is. So maybe this is like a deeper conversation but like are those vices genetic? Is it there’s something like a genetic makeup in me that was able to pick up the phone and call so someone for help or ask advice to somebody that was going to be walked me through it or like, what is that?
Speaker 1 10:07
I think that at that point in your life, if you’re not someone who’s already had alcohol or drugs as a coping mechanism as a way of dealing with escaping from how we’re feeling, if you haven’t already done that, then it’s unlikely that you’re suddenly going to pick that up right there in that moment.
Catherine Hover 10:27
So I’m addicted to asking for help. Basically, that’s
Speaker 1 10:30
not about addiction, actually. But do you think you have that addiction that you’re addicted to asking for help? I
Catherine Hover 10:35
love asking people what they think and having them share, you know, a story or an experience with me, that’s going to help me get to the next thing, right, like connect the dots. So that that is a thing that I am known for, like I tell everybody everything, just to get a sense of what they would do in a situation or you know how to navigate.
Speaker 1 10:58
Asking for help is a higher ordered coping skill.
Catherine Hover 11:01
Okay, cool. That’s good. So like I’m doing the right thing. So we all need to ask for more help. Yeah.
Speaker 1 11:07
I had a friend who was raising kids. And she said the two things she wanted to teach your kids was, use your words, and ask for help.
Catherine Hover 11:17
Yeah, I definitely tell my kids to use your words. So you are a psychiatrist. Tell us why you would choose that profession. Because it seems like really stressful to me.
Speaker 1 11:29
I wanted to medicine on autopilot. It was not a intentional choice. When I was young, I was good at math and science. I got good grades. I liked biology. Someone said you should become a doctor and check the box for my future. So I went pre med. And it wasn’t very intentional at all. When I got into med school, and we started to make decisions for what we’re going to specialize in. I liked all parts of medicine. And I was thinking family practice or internal medicine where you can do a lot of different things. And that’s the direction I was going in was procrastinating filling out my applications for residencies. And I asked myself, I stopped and had a moment of introspection, like, why am I not doing this? And it turns out that what I had really enjoyed was psychiatry. It was getting to know people. And it’s really what I loved. in family practice, when I was rotating to family practice, I remember it was like winter, everybody would come in and say, My head hurts, my sinuses are filled up. And I’m all stressed out. And everybody would leave with a prescription for antibiotics and Prozac that these people are just not getting enough time to talk about their stress. They’re just getting the prescription. So I decided to go for what I loved, which was, you know, connecting with people on a deeper level and helping them with their emotional angst and went into psychiatry.
Catherine Hover 12:59
And then you sort of like went further in, like, how many years have you had your own practice have been decades?
Unknown Speaker 13:08
It’s been decades.
Catherine Hover 13:09
You don’t look old enough to have decades of business?
Unknown Speaker 13:13
What’s the nicest thing someone said to me all day? Thank you.
Catherine Hover 13:16
It’s the cold showers. Right? Yeah, the
Speaker 1 13:18
cold showers must be when I finished my residency in psychiatry, I wanted to be a really good psychiatrists, and what I decided to do, my plan was first to work on inpatient psychiatric units, where you get the most difficult acute challenges with what people are going through. And I would get good at that. And then I would start a private practice. And I would get good at that. And then I would do something else, whatever that something else was, when I started my private practice, at the same time, I was also in continue to be the medical director for Saratoga County alcohol services, and
Catherine Hover 13:53
you’re still doing that, right. So how many years we’ve been doing that cost close to 30. My gosh, so like, the stuff that you’ve seen in day in, day out? It’s like, you got to write a book, right? Which, which you did.
Speaker 1 14:07
Right. So that was my outpatient and then do something else. And that this is my entrepreneurial part of my journey. I wrote a book happiness rules, and you want one of the best reviews for that. So thankful. Ah,
Catherine Hover 14:19
well, reviews are huge. They’re they’re very valuable. And the book was really amazing. When did it come out? I read it right when it came out. It
Speaker 1 14:26
was October 21. Two, yeah, yeah.
Catherine Hover 14:30
Yeah. So I cracked it as soon as I was able to my hands on it, and you’ve been working on it for a while. So I get this book out already. I mean, it’s so it’s all about burnout. And it was all about how to find happiness, which is, you know, what we are all striving for, especially entrepreneurs, I think, especially parents, you know, we’re trying to do the best we can, how do we make sure we can like fulfill our goal of being an awesome mom or parent and still have fun and so the whole book was just so good. And so spot on. I mean, how did you? How did you do that? How did you like speak to me?
Speaker 1 15:07
It was in many respects, it was the story of my own burnout. So going back to 2008, I had become incredibly burnt out, I was very busy. I had a successful private practice, but everyday looked like the next day, it was a treadmill, just work, work work. And there was nothing done the road that looked like it would be lifting that just gets exhausting long days. And
Catherine Hover 15:33
you’re hearing people at their worst, like, they don’t come like people don’t go to their therapist or their psychiatrist because everything’s great. You know, they’re coming to you because they need help, right? So you’re hearing a lot of just down, down, down, I cannot imagine doing that day in and day out. So
Speaker 1 15:50
my twin sister, Magdalena, she she passed away in August 2008, from from brain cancer, and he’d had the diagnosis. And it’s fought that for about three years. And the next month, remember, sitting in a dark room, just like, totally burnt out. And I was looking at a picture of her and the picture was taken while she was going through chemo, and she’s just glowing, she’s smiling. You can’t tell but she’s wearing a wig because she’d lost all her hair. And there was just so striking that with her diagnosis, she had maintained the smile and this grace. And when I talked to her and said, like, you know, this has got to be so hard, because it’s not that bad. You know what, I’m here at home with my kids, which I always wanted to do. My friends visit me all the time my family see around me all the time, not gonna be a lot worse for me. So she was facing, you know, her death. And I had my health I had a private practice that was thriving, and I was so miserable. That was that month after she had passed away. And on that day, I drew a line in the sand, there was a moment of truth, you know, and I said, I’m gonna figure out how to enjoy the ride no matter what, from going forward. And that’s what led to the book. Ultimately, it was like hitting the bottom. And then the story of getting better. And then connecting dots backwards, what are the things that helped in coming out with some simple rules for what makes things better? And as I wrote the book, I started to look at some of the positive psychology movement that’s come out recently. And it was so very aligned with what the research was saying, that just kind of confirmed for me that this was important to put out into the world.
Catherine Hover 17:43
Yeah, I mean, and it’s, it’s so spot on. And I think a lot of times, I mean, even like right now I’ve just, I was just traveling for 10 days to get back into the rhythm of life. It’s just like, overwhelming, you’re behind on emails, the kids are out of their routine. And I’m just like, it’s like a slog. And I think to myself, Well, I haven’t done yoga. I haven’t, you know, like, they’re just like a long list of things that I have not been keeping up with. And no wonder I feel like shit, you know? So it’s like, so frustrating that you stop doing those things, when you’re feeling good. And eventually it will, it will it will catch back up with you. That’s right. And the higher the highs, the lower the lows. I mean, do you do you agree with that? There’s like, there’s no, there’s no way to keep getting happier without still feeling the sadness. Over time, right. Like there’s there’s this and I was just listening to Oprah because that’s the one of the things that Marcella, actually I texted her and I was like I am so feeling like not wanting to come back home, you know, because I’m, I do have a lot of homesickness when I’m here and my family is 1500 miles away, you know, so she’s like, on the way home from New York City to Saratoga, just listen to Oprah Super Soul. Just listen to it. And it’ll, it’ll help you Oprah says something like, you just you, you just don’t get happier without the challenge. Like you can’t just, we can’t just all be happier or happy. It just doesn’t. That’s not That’s not life that’s not human or, right. What do you think?
Speaker 1 19:13
completely true. So you know, ancient wisdom, the Buddha said, life is suffering, so so there’s no way of avoiding suffering. When you were recovering from almost dying, you know, that was suffering, we can’t avoid that. So even while we’re striving towards happiness and more fulfillment, there are going to be moments of uncertainty, there’s going to be moments of suffering, there’s going to be moments of frustration that’s built into the fabric of the world. The definition of suffering that I use comes from Shawn Aker, who is a positive psychology researcher. And he uses a definition that he says comes from the ancient Greeks. It’s the feeling of joy that you get as you strive to fulfill your potential.
Catherine Hover 19:57
What is that the definition of it? happiness, happiness is the joy you get the feeling of joy, the feeling of joy that you get as you strive to fulfill your potential. Okay? So you got to be doing something taking action, you got to be growing, you got to be growing and you got to be growing. You got to be going, you say growing. But I think that that’s that was part of why I was feeling. So there was like a couple of different pieces. First, my hormones were out of control, I lost a lot of blood. So if you don’t have blood, you don’t have oxygen, like, that’s the thing, right? So I’m tired. But the other part of it was deeper in the sense that like, I felt like everyone stepped up when I was in the hospital. And all the stress that I was feeling up until that point, right? The bills, you got to pay the people meetings, you have what, whatever it is, it all just subsided and everyone understood, and everyone just sort of fell into place. And like, I actually didn’t have a purpose other than resting. But I felt this sense of like, I think maybe this is it, like maybe I should just die. Do you know, like, I should have just like, caught like, called it a day and everyone would have been fine. And so there was like this sense of like, peace. So most, but also like, now what do I do?
Unknown Speaker 21:20
Right, so that purpose is really important.
Catherine Hover 21:23
Yeah, I mean, I guess I guess you’re right. I mean, I just, it was a weird, like, I don’t I don’t know, it’s hard to even express the experience because it wasn’t like, I was depressed. It wasn’t. It wasn’t depression, it was just like, I don’t I don’t know what just happened.
Speaker 1 21:39
It’s it’s almost like existential angst. existential angst.
Catherine Hover 21:43
Yeah, that’s, I guess that’s, that’s what it was. It took two weeks, literally two took weeks, because I spoke to you on Wednesday. And you were like, if you are still feeling this way, in a week, we will have another conversation. And we will, you know, do do whatever we need to do. But I’m certainly won’t feel this way in a week. And it was crazy. I mean, it’s not. It’s not crazy a science, but it was just so wild how it felt like a wave or like a veil lifted. And I felt okay, again. Yeah, it’s just chemicals in your in your head and your brain, your body. Just have to like get back stabilized. Give yourself time to heal. Yeah. So tell us more about how you incorporate the positive psychology. I mean, it’s always been there and you think now it’s just trendier, or people are just more aware of it. Like, you must be seeing more people coming to therapy, talking about mental health and wellness and like, what’s your take on this? Are you sort of like, well, yeah, I’ve been doing this for decades. Like, welcome to the party. You’re a little late? No, no,
Speaker 1 22:50
I think that we’ve been late to the party of what makes people thrive, the science of flourishing is something that we’ve not done a good job at looking at in psychiatry, psychiatry has historically dealt with, you know, severe and persistent mental illness, you know, people who are unable to function well, because of schizophrenia, or bipolar, or depression, or, you know, severe panic and anxiety, PTSD. So it’s dealt with the illness side of the human psyche. And whether it’s medications or therapy, that’s what we’ve focused on the science of flourishing, like, what makes people excel, what makes people happy, we did not do a good job of looking at that. And it’s only in the recent years, that the research on that came out, started to come out. And it’s just been really interesting to see us pick that up. And the folks who are into that just get better and better. defining things and simplifying things and incorporate that into treatments and ways of living.
Catherine Hover 24:01
Yeah. And this is why you really like to work with entrepreneurs, right? Because they are already working on themselves or working on something and they’re, they need help with the burnout side of it, because they don’t know how to stop working or they don’t know how to stop trying to fulfill this this goal or find that happiness, but you say,
Speaker 1 24:21
no, absolutely. So entrepreneurs, number one, they get things done so they don’t sit around and they’re not going to spend a year in therapy not doing anything different just talking about the same thing, right? So they get things done. They’re very driven individuals and you know, finding balance and flourishing is something that you know, a little bit of that goes a long way and can be incredibly helpful pretty quickly and helping people do feel better. And the last part of it is that the the idea of helping more people to help more people,
Catherine Hover 24:55
right you know, I use that all the time now I stolen from you, or someone else. Okay, well I give you credit when, like, as much as whenever I can, but I definitely came from you. Leadership
Speaker 1 25:04
is, you know, helping more people to help more people, if you help two people, and they help two people, they help two people, it’s exponential, the way that the world can change, by putting ideas out into the world. And with entrepreneurs, I think that that’s something that happens very organically. So whether it’s something that I talked about, or a little pearl of wisdom that I’m able to give to someone that they can then give to someone on their team, someone you know, in the vendor network, or a customer, right, these little nuggets, these little ideas, helping more people to help more people, is how we’re going to change the world. Yeah.
Catherine Hover 25:46
Oh, it’s so much fun to.
Speaker 1 25:48
That’s right. So the definition of happiness, the feeling of joy, as you strive to fulfill your potential, incorporates a couple of ideas incorporates the idea of you’ve got to embrace the suck, right? So there are going to be times as you’re striving to fulfill your potential. So whether it’s during a hard workout, or a hard season of your life, but you’ve got to embrace the suck.
Catherine Hover 26:09
Okay, then what do you say after that? That’s true. Oh, that’s awesome.
Speaker 1 26:16
You don’t have to change anything. Yeah, sometimes it just sucks. Yeah.
Catherine Hover 26:19
So can you think of a time when you felt like, Oh, my God, I’m not gonna get through this, you know, this is just the worst experience and just like speak to the point that like, it’s universal, the things that one does, to get through it, we all need to do to get through it.
Speaker 1 26:38
I think we pick up wisdom, the more we go through things, and that, you know, I can’t get through this is it’s a little less likely to occur when we’ve gotten through a bunch of stuff, as a psychiatry is central preserve all the answers, but there’s many times that I have not had antigen in my life. So I can think back, I’ve shared that, you know, I had problems with alcohol. And there were periods in my life, you know, before I hit a bottom with alcohol, and had a lot of stuff going on around that, that this sucks. I don’t know how I’m gonna get through this. I don’t know if I can get through this. So those are very challenging
Catherine Hover 27:11
times. So do you, like openly talk about about that? I don’t disclose it
Speaker 1 27:16
candidly, very much in my private practice, that that’s not relevant that the most of the work that I do, because you can’t talk about you. Right. So in the practices of psychiatry, self disclosure is a no, no. We talked about the framework of boundaries within the psychiatric practice, that’s a boundary we don’t self disclose the client is there for their stuff, not for them to listen to my stuff. Yeah, yeah. In my entrepreneurial work, when I’m coaching, when I’m talking about happiness rules, when I’m giving talks, as an entrepreneur, I think that, you know, being open and candid about past experiences, helps me to connect with an audience and helps them to take what I’m saying, more seriously, not on the mountaintop. I’m just like them. So those are the on the podcast. Yeah. These are places where I think it’s very reasonable and important to say, I’m not different than other people,
Catherine Hover 28:12
when you’re going through that. And you decided, okay, I’m not going to drink anymore. You know, did you go through the A program? Or like, how did you? How did you get through that and incorporate that into your life,
Speaker 1 28:26
it didn’t cause problems in my professional life, it was definitely making a mess of my personal life with with my family and with my wife at the time. And I did what most people do when they say that, you know, I’ve got a problem, and I can’t fix it. So I need to go get some help. And the help that I got, I went to AAA, I got into individual therapy, I got into group therapy, I was, you know, committing to that on a weekly basis. After a couple of months of traveling back and forth to Albany and kind of getting sick and tired. I talked about my fears about going to AAA here locally. And I was talking about it in group therapy. One of my friends there said, you know, I think you’ve got to put all your chips into the middle of the table. This is a problem for you that you need help with. You can’t be putting the barrier of Albany because you’re afraid, you know, you’ve got to trust the process is what he said. Trust Yeah, process and do what you have to do to take care of yourself. That’s your number one priority. Yeah.
Catherine Hover 29:30
And it’s like, it’s all gonna be okay. And that was, yeah, that’s so awesome. Yeah. All right. Tell us all about TMS. You did it to me. We did this a year ago. Maybe you put the cap on me and you zapped my brain. So you didn’t have the full course of T I need more of it.
Speaker 1 29:46
So TMS transcranial magnetic stimulation. It’s a treatment for depression that has failed to respond to antidepressants. About 33 36% of people who get put on antidepressants do not respond well to them, they continue to have depression in spite of the best treatments that they’re having. And this magnetic therapy involves putting a magnet very close to your head, you turn the magnet on and off. And that creates an electrical current that goes through the skull to the very surface of the brain. And that stimulation over time, helps to treat depression where other things have not. So this population of folks of 36%, who have not responded to antidepressants, the chances are they’re going to respond to the next medication you give them is 5% or less TMS in this population works 50 to 70% of the time. It’s becoming more and more accepted, it’s been FDA approved for well over 10 years now, it has very few side effects. And for people who don’t want to be taking medications, it’s a great modality, looking give you a quick patient story. So I have a patient who I treated for years, is very stoic, hard working professional taking care of a family at home, but remained pretty depressed. And the way that we’ll measure depression is with an instrument called a PHQ. Nine, it’s nine questions that talk about symptoms of depression, and you rate how severely they’re having these scores of, you know, 15 and above are pretty depressed. She was in the 20s.
Catherine Hover 31:34
Okay, and this is on a scale from like, one to 20 some of the things. Okay, so it’s like nine questions. And if you rank them close to 20, you’re in trouble. Yeah. So
Speaker 1 31:46
she was very depressed. Yes, by the way, you couldn’t tell by interacting with her. She was just carrying the silent depression. And I’ve been treating her for 10 years. So she got good treatment, lots of trials of lots of medications and combinations, she went through a course of TMS and her PHQ nine dropped from 20. to zero. Like, no symptoms of depression. That’s crazy. tapra. Unbelievable. That is unbelievable. Now, not everybody gets that level of remission.
Catherine Hover 32:22
And not that many people make it to, to want to try that next thing, right? Like if you’re failing medication after medication, and you’ve been doing it for 10 years, like, she’s gotta be a badass to be like, yep, sign me up for this, you know, and so I just I get frustrated with the system that’s at play, right? Like, why can’t we just start with TMS? Well,
Speaker 1 32:43
we literally can so so at this point in time with insurances. The fields come a long way, when it hasn’t been that long, I’ve been doing TMS in the office, it’s about two years, when I started, in order to get approval from your insurance company, you needed to have failed four or more antidepressants, and two courses of psychotherapy. So we have a document and
Catherine Hover 33:08
in psychotherapy, is talk therapy, or is it different types of exactly,
Speaker 1 33:12
therapy. In the last year, those criteria have dropped to two medications that you failed. And the course of psychotherapy, and the psychotherapy component, many insurance companies are currently dropping. Now, the biggest barrier to entry is no longer not having availability, it’s no longer you know, the insurance company’s not approving it. It’s really, people don’t know about it, people
Catherine Hover 33:39
don’t know about it. Well, now they’re gonna know. But I mean, we’ve talked about this so many times, I remember I was so excited when he got the TMS machine. And I was like, you gotta, you got to drop my head. I was just so excited to try it out. And I mean, what I mean, it was like a tap, it felt like a tap on your head, and a multiple taps on your head, and you got to go every day. And it’s for six weeks, right?
Speaker 1 33:59
So that’s, that’s the part that’s a little bit of a pain. It’s every day for six to eight weeks, and it’s about 30 minutes in and out, you know, coming to the office, leaving the office, you can drive yourself there, you can get back into your life, go back to work, do whatever you need to do after you finish this. There’s no period that you’re kind of incapacitated from it. Yeah. And you and I both know, a friend who has not had depression, but he’s used TMS as an entrepreneur, to help him with clarity of thought, and it has found it incredibly helpful.
Catherine Hover 34:34
I think the biggest barrier for me is the time commitment, like getting there every day for six weeks. We can all improve,
Speaker 1 34:42
we can all improve. So whether it’s with positive psychology or coaching or therapy, behavioral therapy,
Catherine Hover 34:48
I love therapy, but it’s a it’s a rough, it’s rough. I mean, I can talk to a brick wall. I’ve we’ve talked about this before. It’s like I can talk to anybody, right? I sit down in the chair and I like raw everywhere, right? So at least in therapy It’s like, this is the appropriate place to talk about these things. So I love it. And I love my therapist. She’s amazing. And I never really had the experience. I’ve heard people talk about how, you know, I just, I just can’t find the right therapist, I can’t find the right one that’s gonna, you know, and I think it’s also it can be stressful to have to, like, go in and say, Okay, let me bring you up to speed because my life is in total chaos right now. So once you get a good person, you got to stick with them. Let’s circle back to coaching. Another thing I’m super big fan of, and you specialize on entrepreneurs. That’s
Speaker 1 35:33
right. So was coaching versus therapy, therapy is following the pain backwards, right, that alleviate pain that someone’s having, and following the Trail of Tears. So right now, there’s pain and angst in your life now in you’re following the trail of tears to try to relieve that, okay. And coaching, I would say is more kind of following the trail of dreams, where you want to be how you want to be doing. And it’s really building up this this life in which you’re flourishing. And that’s what I bring to the table for entrepreneurs, who, when they’re facing outward, you know, they’ve got it all together, right. But anybody who’s got it all together, who’s like, putting it all in, you know, there’s a dark side, there’s a backside that we don’t talk about. Yeah, one of the people that comes to mind is Michael Phelps, the swimmer. So, you know, he won gold medal after gold medal for years and years. But he had terrible problems with with depression and stuff. So yeah, we’ve got the outward facing part of us. And then for the entrepreneurs having the place where they can talk with someone who’s knowledgeable, not just about, you know, the dreams flourishing. But but how to help them with with some of the troubles that are having.
Catherine Hover 36:53
Yeah, I mean, I just think it’s, it’s if anything, we both sides of it. Well, we can we got to come back, because I think it’s been like four years since we did an interview like this. And it’s not fair to the world. We have to we have to have these conversations more often. Reach out, I’ll be here. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here. Where do you buy the book?
Speaker 1 37:14
So anywhere? books are sold. So Amazon, its happiness rules, beat burnout, embrace happiness, become a better entrepreneur.
Catherine Hover 37:22
Yes. And it’s amazing. I love this book. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1 37:27
Thanks, Catherine. My pleasure and love to be back anytime as you want. Awesome.
Catherine Hover 37:34
This week’s facepalm mom is all about a couple of weeks ago when I you know those days when you just wake up and you’re like, I’m going to kill this day. I’m going to get all the things done that I need to get done. And I’m going to be able to rest my awesome head on the pillow at night feeling just like so successful that I got it all done. I did the best I could and you know, well, that did not happen on this day. I woke up thinking that got everyone out of the house in a timely order. So like they had runny noses and you know, the coughs but no fever. I mean, that’s the thing. If you don’t have fever, you send your kids to school. So that is what I did. And literally 20 minutes after I got back to palate, coffee and hand about to a podcast interview. The Pre K calls and says that Xia puke, so I had to come pick her up. And so I pick her up, and we put them we put a mask on her and we brought her to palette. I mean, I made sure everyone here was like cool with me bringing a kid with a legit stomach and stomach bug like I didn’t see your puke but I do believe she did. So that happened and then don’t know as soon as the interview we were doing the interview, I had a missed call from Ruby’s school nurse saying that she had a runny nose. And I’m like, wait a minute, a runny nose is not a reason to send my kid home today of all days when I was going to kill it today. So she just said like she couldn’t breathe through her nose and I had to I would be best to come pick her up like she doesn’t have a fever. But she’s very lethargic and tired and not herself. So I was like, Okay, fine. I go and pick her up, go straight to Walgreens because of course I’m not going back home to get meds and I don’t carry them on me and don’t know this child is skipping up and down the aisles like she is not lethargic. She is just herself her Ruby self. So I was like you know what, I’m just gonna roll with that. We had a we had a lunch date to support a local nonprofit that I love so much. It’s Jake’s help from heaven. So I was like, Screw it. I’m going to call the restaurant add two more to that reservation and we’re going to show up at the restaurant. And we did so we had so much fun raising money for Jake stop and Kevin. And I did actually go to bed that night feeling quite successful. So there you have it. I mean sometimes you just gotta bring the kids along sickness and all through sickness and health. Thank you for listening to this podcast. And if you want to connect with me slide into my DMs on Instagram. My handle is Catherine hoever
Transcribed by https://otter.ai